We call ourselves Christians, yet we hold on to our culture for it is a virtue, an original piece of heritage that has been passed down from generation to generation.

So we are caught in the middle,which direction should we turn, which solution?

Therefore do not blindly implement laws that even the lawmakers are pretty doubtful about.

Peter - Poor, disabled, unempowered, young, old, fragile and weak - yes. But never criminals, otherwise society is doomed.

Gentlemen – Here we go again.

Correct me if I'm wrong but according to 2010 world figures, about 384,000 people are being born into the world every day and 156,000 pass on (to God knows where). That is an increase of 229,000 people in this world daily.

In PNG more than 400 people are being born daily compared to less than 120 deaths per day (CIA world fact book). That is a net gain of 280 per day.

Now my question, why are we spending so much time talking about a few (may be less than 20) lousy, unworthy, human scum when we should be talking about how to improve the quality of life of the innocent and deserving majority who suffer at the hands of these half humans.

It would be interesting to foray into the "deep-South" old style chaingang - only PNG style.

As it seems the regulators are willing to let in foreign labour to conduct road rebuilding programs, resource processing etc, maybe the costs of doing so should be offset against non-productive prison maintenance.

Profile or catch some worthy criminal types, and train them up to do required tasks and sentence them to a penal apprenticeship / servitude.

Install the ageless John Fowke and Bob Cleland, and a few other stalwarts as overseers (21st century Kiaps) and completely rejig the national application of justice principles to better meet the cultural sympathies of a people ignorant of or opposed to UN agendas et al.

I would be suspicious of allowing a top-down application of capital punishment in the hands of the existing not-so-well regulated admin oversight before trying a more bottom-up methodology.

If PNGeans are already ticked off with corruption now, putting additional powers of deterrence in the hands of an "untrustworthy" leadership may invite even more strife.

Localising the solutions, and allowing capital projects to be administered regionally albeit under the national oversight of Government / courts etc might open up channels of creativity and hopefulness to otherwise marginalised regional authourities.

The contracts that are now negotiated or are being negotiated involving the borrowing of billions should be redesigned to allow for the utilisation of to-be-trained PNGeans.

If Panguna is to be reopened, let the locals be trained up by BCL to be able to do the lions share of the work.

Oh well; one can dream a little.

Peter K, you young raskol, re-enter the fray.

Leonard, line up the literary cannons and train them upon the subject.

The Issue has only begun.

Please note - I did not state an opinion on the death penalty, merely asked some questions and gave some facts that need to be considered (which can be readily checked).

It's up to the good people of PNG to decide for themselves.

Apart from the fact that the death penalty tends to become a class-based weapon, witness George W Bush in Texas using it to keep black and hispanic minorities in line, it also presents some unique problems in PNG.

Of all the horrific crimes recently reported the burning of alleged witches in the highlands comes to mind.

If you could separate the actual people responsible from the larger mob and successfully convict them who is going to do the actual hanging? And where would it be done? Presumably if you want it to be a practical deterrent it should be done in public.

Then what do you do to protect the hangman (or hangwoman) from payback, not to mention witnesses at the trial?

Public hangings drew large crowds in pre-war days. Maybe they could become another tourist attraction. Land of the really unexpected!

You could also organise public amputations of hands for convicted thieves too. And maybe whippings for adulterers. The list is endless if O'Neill wants to get creative.

I suggest the PNG people have a look at what happens in Indonesia these days.

We have numerous Australian drug smugglers in Indonesian gaols. Some have been given the Death Sentence but they have become very sorry for their sins and seem to be working to help the Indonesian prison guards.

There are numerous appeals so hopefully their Death Sentence may be changed to so many years in gaol.

The threat of death seems to have brought them to their senses, they have repented of their crimes and become changed people.

I think a few of the Indonesians who made the bombs and blew up the cafes in Bali and killed many people have been caught but they have not repented so they have the Death Penalty and this has been carried out in some cases.

I suggest PNG increase the size of its Police Force, for starters. We know that some states in the US have the Death Penalty but there is still plenty of crime in the US.

An interesting discussion. From a sentencing perspective there is very little evidence to support the death penalty's deterrent effect; in fact, from memory some states in the US which introduced the death penalty witnessed a rise in violent crime.

There is a moral argument to be made for it. Retribution or just deserts is about communicating censure through proportionate punishment, so I suppose this leaves open a window for the death penalty.

But I always find point 7 of Peter's argument most compelling. Moral arguments can't be won in any black and white sense, but we know from the experience of a range of jurisdictions that innocent people get put to death.

If there is a high risk innocent people are going to be killed by the state, then it would seem better to err on the side of caution and use an alternative proportionate means for censuring individuals.

There are certainly some very cogent reasons why it would be simpler and far less expensive to operate the death penalty that is already on the PNG books.

There doesn't need to be new laws so why is there to be a debate? Surely that's just window dressing to cover up the inadequacy of the current lack of law and order?

I understand and accept the economic reasons behind John's position and I accept David's view that something must be done now without further delay.

I suggest however that the evidence in the US and elsewhere where legal executions are commonplace does not stop the problems from reoccurring.

Therefore some cooler heads need to determine what actions will stop these crimes from being committed or at least reduce the incidence of them.

Anyone who has suffered from an intentional criminal act will rightly feel they want to exact retribution. Will that retribution, should it be allowed as it is in some countries, cause the perpetrator to simply be reduced the same level as the original criminal?

However, given that this is a matter for PNG people to consider, perhaps those of us on the outside need to take a few deep breaths?

Implement the death penalty for murderers and rapists and increase penalties on other crimes. The more time we take to execute the death penalty law, we can expect more and more rapes and murders of innocent people.

It is not right to put your citizens' lives in danger by not executing the laws that are realistically necessary to protect them.

It is not just and fair to take another innocent person's life or deprive him or her of his rights and freedom. It is right and fair to treat the person the same way he treated you.

After all, all humans have brains to think and act, and everyone has feelings.

If the death penlaty is implemented I think people will fear to do the crimes to risk their own lives. Currently, people take advantage of our softer laws.

I guess some of the lessons we learned from the outcome-based education thread might stand to show us, in part, that the moral declension arising from social engineering is very robust in its outcomes.

Societies everywhere grapple with how to deal with the human condition.

PNG is willing to advocate death penalties for capital crimes but not forsake the exploitation of "everyman's" futures allowing PMIZ's to fragment the notion of jobs for locals etc. Isn't that a crime of capital nature?

Perhaps when individuals cease to believe in the sanctity of life from a point of fear/reverence for law and order they also take unto themselves the province of arbitrating right from wrong as a purely subjective reasoning.

It's a rather god-like personal ambition with which no well regulated society can afford to put up with.

Playing the devil’s advocate here.

I do not disagree with everyone who is saying no to death penalty. And I understand and agree with your reasons for your resistance.

But do you honestly believe government services (health, education, etc) and government presence (police, kiap, etc) would improve sooner to help discourage violent crime?

If the answer is yes, then I'm happy to join you in opposing judicial killings.

But if the answer is no, then I would like to know what other more humane alternatives are available to arrest this worrying trend immediately?

Simply criticising politicians for lack of this or lack of that won’t stop a few morally corrupt people from continuing to commit terrible atrocities on the innocent and vulnerable people in this country.

Judicial killings might not stop violent crime completely, but it might just halt the tide until we get our acts together and start developing this country in the right way.

Wow - I thought I'd open a hornet's nest. And Cygil I had the pleasure of hearing Mary Midgley when I was a mere student. Plus Fredrick Coplestone, a Catholic father and philosopher of great wisdom, who tried in vain to teach me few things.

I believe saying "Jesus is simply wrong here" is a pretty amazing argument, but good on you for having the guts to go so far.

My last resort is to quote Douglas Adams. "A few thousand years ago, someone got nailed to a tree for daring to suggest that it might be a good idea to be Nice to each other for a change."

Wakai wei.

There are surely some people who deserve to die for the crimes they have committed. However, do we trust the PNG justice system to be perfect enough to never execute an innocent person whether convicted mistakenly or malevolently?

Do we trust the politicians and bureaucrats of papua new guinea (and their wantoks) to never use the death penalty as a threat or a punishment to those whom they have a disagreement with?

The answer to these questions is no and no. We do not trust them. The political elite is rampantly corrupt and the use of threats, violence and coercion are common tactics used by the influential in this country as they jockey for more wealth and power.

The PNG legal system is somewhat more robust than the political class and retains more integrity than the big men in Waigani yet they are still nowhere near perfect, and perfection is what is required for a death penalty. For there is no undoing a mistaken death sentence.

The real problem is law and order is non existent. In many parts of png there is a complete absence of governance including but not limited to police presence.

Society is blighted by a rampantly corrupt, underfunded and apathetic police force that is inclined to do nothing about crime in general and crime against women in particular.

Combine this with a struggling education system that cant even extinguish backwards nonsense beliefs in rubbish like puri puri and the existence of witches and you have a recipe for anarchy.

Until now the tribal mentality was the only thing holding together society. Now with modernism and materialist sensibilities loosening the bonds of tribal duty there is not even that.

To introduce the death penalty in PNG would be a backwards step. We can not adress barbarism within our society by becoming even more barbaric ourselves. This is not the way forward our country.
___________

Next time full name, please Alfred - KJ

Tenkyu tru for the time and effort lo raitim disla. Yu gutpla tambu.

At a time when our emotions are everywhere because we are women and we are sick and tired of our headlines and yet have to consider that we are educated, that we do lotu, that we are the face of PNG, it is difficult to think and put together something like your excellent discussion above, all in one page because the list of what we are up against is endless. Our complaints will outweigh our constructive ideas.

It seems easy to want to act first and think later yet who can argue further for short cut (feel the pain too!) penalties after reading your findings presented above and also those of Mr Namorong's in his most recent post on his blog.

With your article, we can reason.

It's rare that I get to put on my hat as a fully trained moral philosopher :)

Unfortunately this means I can't really contribute to this debate as I would have to write an essay to do justice to the issues you have raised. However, to shorten the debate:

I am not opposed to the intrinsic idea of death as a punishment. I accept that there is a class of people whose moral desert is death.

The evidence of extreme and genuine wickedness (I suggest Mary Midgely's book "Wickedness" on this topic, or any of Harold Schecter's profiles of famous criminal psychopaths) is too unrelenting.

Is the death vengeance? Yes, and I agree that Christ does counsel us against vengeance, but Jesus is simply wrong here.

There are some people so wicked that people are justified in wishing to rid the moral community of them, be it vengeance or otherwise. Jesus clearly never met an authentic criminal psychopath.

What I am definitely opposed to is death penalty /judicial systems/, which are arbitrary, unfair and hypocritical. I have zero confidence that PNG is up to the task of even American-level juridical standards for death penalty defendents.

Take the recently celebrated Jodi Arias trial in the US. The state has expended at least 1.4 million dollars US on her defense, to ensure her right to adequate counsel.

And the result will probably not even be a death penalty verdict, because I suspect the jury will balk at convicting a woman on the capital charge (even though her extreme sociopathic tendancies are obvious, there's still an extreme reluctance to execute a woman).

Is PNG up to expending millions of kina on a capital trial to ensure internationally required standards to adequate right to council? Of course not.

This is a populist proposal by O'Neill to paper over the fact that the rule of law is weak to nonexistent in most of PNG, and his police are corrupt and ineffective.